Structuring multiple lessons

[Rickard]

LK has dedicated a chapter on distance casting in his Salt Water book, there he has written you should aim for at least 100ft.

Do you disagree?
Pretty solid advice in my experience.
Not that one is likely to get there using his ‘tips’ alone.

Strong wind punishes casting faults. Practicing distance is an excellent way to identify and work on those faults.
It is not about catching fish at 100’ ( although some days it absolutely is), it is more about being able to fish effectively at 60’ when faced with the common wind speeds we encounter. Few saltwater fisherman can.

As for cost, very few of us take $10,000 trips but a great many spend $1000 on new rods and lines in a misguided effort to gain a tiny bit more distance. The real cost is the practice time required. Very few guys can carve those hours out of their lives without skimping on other important priorities.
George

Well almost every one can find 10-20 minutes a couple of times per week.
5 minutes to get out, setup the rod and get inside.
5 minutes of accuracy.
5 minutes carry.
5 minutes something like else.

[Stoatstail50]

it is more about being able to fish effectively at 60’ when faced with the common wind speeds we encounter. Few saltwater fisherman can.

I know at least one guide who calls 60’ shots 80’ shots because it makes the clients feel better when they don’t quite make them. Most of my fish on the salt have been short of 60’. That’s mainly because I don’t see them till they’re hitting my shins though.

Just to be clear, Lefty’s 100’ wasn’t going to be with a competition 5# MED. I think he had other gear in mind.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Oh shit...

LK is Lefty!

I thought LK was Lasse, so I went all over trying to find his saltwater book!

I'm ashamed as I knew LK#1, and disappointed there is not a LK#2 book.

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

Comments in bold.

John

Hi John

Getting them to throw a ball identifies any physical constraints that would impact the distance casting lesson.

Entirety SPOOTA based but in terms of medically related physical constraints, I would think about 80% of the physically constrained students I see have rotator cuff issues, including tears and impingements, that directly affect the back cast. These are prevalent in the gentlemen of a certain age group that I see most often for teaching.

Throwing a ball is a very informative tool to use for the backcast. Get the student to throw it back over the shoulder and you'll soon identify whether any medical related physical constraints pertinent to all the muscles that comprise the shoulder, and very specifically the rotator cuff group. It will also identify any issues with trunk musculature. Observation of movement without a rod and line is a key "how" for casting instructors.

You can affirm cognitive overload through discussion.

The non verbal signs are the most obvious early indicator of cognitive overload and usually occur long before the student gets a word in.

True, but the right conversation will identify which of the three categories of overload is the impinging on the instruction, from which the instructor can prioritise actions when time is a constraint.

Minimise the talk and maximise the observation.

Agree with that. External observable cues are specifically designed for this purpose.

I recommend both internal and external cues be used for casting.

That's great, if they can throw the target distance that's one constraint removed.

It was the back cast that I specifically questioned. How are you covering that off with the ball thrower?

Refer above, backwards ball throwing shows the full movement patterning the student uses for their backcast, from stance to loop formation and illustrates key indicators like tracking and direction.

The ball launcher does not have the issues a rod and line has if you are instructing distance, as Paul's example requires. It always provides accurate, specific movement feedback to the caster, easily and quickly. That is not always the outcome with a rod and line.

That’s exactly why I don’t use it with novices and the self taught. Presumably this is a technique for advanced casters?

Definitely not, it is effective for novices and the self taught, everyone really. It is also great for relearning casting movement patterning. Modularity is good, transitioning from a ball launcher to a rod and line, reflects that approach. If instructors jump in straight away with a rod and line, they most likely would start with short line exercise, then transition to long line exercises. Same thing, that's using a modular approach. When the use of a rod and line complicates the learning progression, use a ball launcher backwards and forwards. It is a great tool to have the student experience kinetic chain staging. The "train as you play" concept is great, but only if the student is ready for that. If not, then instructional adaptability will get him or her ready for it.

Identifying the source of student frustration in any stage of the instruction cycle is not a wtf moment for me.

Any sportsman operating autonomously can be in a good or bad place but if you have taught them the correct movement and they are operating autonomously, they should be delighted.

It would be great if that statement was correct.

We see examples of bad autonomous behaviour in the self taught who have engrained poor technique. This is why we use techniques such as Old way/new way and AoE to take them back to the cognitive stage and the road back requires deliberate practice. A tweak is usually ineffective because the engrained movement will recur.

True, that's why I have included reverting back through the three stages when progression does not occur at the desired pace. The indicators you design for the lesson should be stage dependent and are relevant to both learning and relearning. That's why internal cueing is critical for both the learning or relearning of trunk rotation and staging instruction for distance, before you transition to external cues for use by the student.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Do you also include how to stand up on the bow of a pitching and rolling boat without weight shifting?

Of course.

[Paul Arden]

That’s a good question Torsten and I don’t know. I certainly try to keep it a fairly low key because I’m as busy as I want to be. This week was 10 lessons which is typical. Some weeks I do 15 and feel like I’m working too hard. I do have other things to do!

I could go full time, which would look like 200 students/year. Currently I’m close to 50 and I have a self-imposed cap at 50. Eastern Time US is busy and I don’t want people struggling to book me. I also want to be available for WhatsApp discussions between lessons and so on and give each student a really good experience.

Many rebook. One I’ve been teaching since the beginning and we now see each other every couple of months.

I have thought about bringing in other instructors, perhaps just for specific lessons, but that could also turn out to be an enormous headache

It’s certainly very effective. Single lessons aren’t.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

Hi John

Throwing a ball is a very informative tool to use for the backcast. Get the student to throw it back over the shoulder and you'll soon identify whether any medical related physical constraints pertinent to all the muscles that comprise the shoulder, and very specifically the rotator cuff group.

I always ask about pre-existing conditions before we start, you know if you have issues in this area.

When the use of a rod and line complicates the learning progression

What behaviour do you typically see that complicates learning progression that is cured by use of the ball catcher?

It would be great if that statement was correct.

It’s straight from Huber

https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/exce ... nstruction

Both good outcomes and bad outcomes are associated with the autonomous stage. The good is that performance requires much less attentional and cognitive demand, which thereby frees the performer to engage in secondary tasks, such as the concert pianist who is able to follow random digits or perform arithmetic while simultaneously playing the piano (Shaffer, 1980), or the quarterback who is capable of surveying the defense and detecting an eminent blitz while simultaneously calling the signals and changing the play at the line of scrimmage.


The bad is that since less cognitive demand exists during performance, it leaves ample room for irrelevant and distracting thoughts to sneak into the workshop (working memory) of the mind. Examples of this occurrence are the elite athletes at the Olympic trials who get caught thinking about making the Olympic team instead of focusing exclusively on performance during the last moments of a gymnastics routine, swimming race, or wrestling match.

We’ve beaten this topic to death, I’m just going to leave a summary of where the science is at:

https://www.scienceforsport.com/coaching-cues/

In most circumstances studied, external coaching cues appear to be more effective than both internal and normal cues for performance, skill development and retention.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi Vince,

Again re. bold.

John

Hi John

Throwing a ball is a very informative tool to use for the backcast. Get the student to throw it back over the shoulder and you'll soon identify whether any medical related physical constraints pertinent to all the muscles that comprise the shoulder, and very specifically the rotator cuff group.

I always ask about pre-existing conditions before we start, you know if you have issues in this area.

So do I, but the ball exercise makes any pre-existing issues very obvious. It is a great visual check on the what you are told.

When the use of a rod and line complicates the learning progression

What behaviour do you typically see that complicates learning progression that is cured by use of the ball catcher?


It's a ball launcher, not a ball catcher. Line sag and line slag, means the caster searches for the "feel" of line tension on the rod tip often means the caster falls into the trap of using the wrist/elbow to gain control. The caster reverts to reinforcing an arm centric technique when a body centric technique is the instructional objective.. Remember, Paul's example, which my response targeted, was distance casting and in my experience, reversion to the arm to create acceleration is the most common problem in fly distance. Both the ball and thrower and banding are the most effective method available in order to instruct rotational trunk movement and staging. If you have found a better alternative, please post the detail here so I can adopt it.

It would be great if that statement was correct.

It’s straight from Huber

But they not always delighted, are they?

https://us.humankinetics.com/blogs/exce ... nstruction

Both good outcomes and bad outcomes are associated with the autonomous stage. The good is that performance requires much less attentional and cognitive demand, which thereby frees the performer to engage in secondary tasks, such as the concert pianist who is able to follow random digits or perform arithmetic while simultaneously playing the piano (Shaffer, 1980), or the quarterback who is capable of surveying the defense and detecting an eminent blitz while simultaneously calling the signals and changing the play at the line of scrimmage.


The bad is that since less cognitive demand exists during performance, it leaves ample room for irrelevant and distracting thoughts to sneak into the workshop (working memory) of the mind. Examples of this occurrence are the elite athletes at the Olympic trials who get caught thinking about making the Olympic team instead of focusing exclusively on performance during the last moments of a gymnastics routine, swimming race, or wrestling match.

We’ve beaten this topic to death, I’m just going to leave a summary of where the science is at:

https://www.scienceforsport.com/coaching-cues/

In most circumstances studied, external coaching cues appear to be more effective than both internal and normal cues for performance, skill development and retention.

You’re correct we've done this to death. However one final request. In your studies of the research available, have you seen an external cue that a caster/thrower can use for the cognitive stage of learning the stretch and release mechanism used in throwing sports? I’ve asked this question before and have not had it answered. I would love to be informed of one so I can use it. In the absence of an external cue, I’ve offered an internal cue for use by casters and instructors but keep getting reminded that external cueing is better. That’s great but please, define one for me. I’ve read all the research quoted, and more, and I still don’t have one. The throwing coaches I spoken to about this, all use the muscle feel based cues when instructing this aspect of technique. I’m going to leave there, but look forward to reading about one some time in the future.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

I try to get my SW guys into the 110-115’ distance mark. Forehand and backhand. I think that technique level allows you to make 80’ shots into the wind. So one performance level above Lefty’s suggestion. It’s just technique and a measure of it. Carry is a better one for me. Somewhere in the 80 ft mark is that equivalent. It’s mostly about doing the basics extremely well and a little bit of fine tuning.

If you want to make an 80’ shot in a wind you need to be able to cast further than that when it’s not windy.

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

I’m currently more or less under a bush. There were fish everywhere yesterday…not a dimple to be seen today.

I don’t teach stretch and release at the cognitive stage, I’m not even sure what it is. At this stage it would be unusual for a caster to have sufficient conscious control over their core to be able to execute anything core complex. They’re usually frozen solid.

Whatever it is I suspect if I did it now I’d fall in