Structuring multiple lessons

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Where do you go from here with this dream student?

Cheers, Paul

I'd go with them to Key West!

The permit fishing there is excellent. In fact, as far as I know, it is where permit on fly originated. I would also suspect that more permit on fly have been caught there than everywhere else in the world combined... but that is just SPOOTA.

Now... casting to them does take some practice, and is a bit specialized, but it is nowhere as difficult as the scenario you described.

And there are dozens of guides there that can put you in position to make a much easier cast.

However I do know a world travelling fly angler who could not get it done there, so he flew to somewhere in western Australia where he said permit are about as hard to feed as starving dogs!

[Paul Arden]

Yep they are not very difficult there, at least nothing like I have read about. It’s a different permit sub species too I believe and grows to the teens of pounds. It’s a cracking fishery however. Pressure obviously changes the behaviour of the fish. I can’t wait to fish and sail those waters north of Exmouth. From there right around to Cape York must just be incredible.

Oman was just an example and is pretty challenging in its own way. I thought about it because I have two students coming as a result of that fishery. But sight fishing shots for me anyway is what really excites me nowadays. Most of my students come to improve their shots game. It’s obviously a big intake because you see the fish and it’s frustrating as hell if you can’t make the shot.

This wasn’t a question of what to teach however, it was a question about how to teach. For me it relates right back to teaching core movement skills (as well as the mental game too of course) and then how to go about it. It’s an example of why I think the “competition” block and flip, and for that matter the 170, are highly applicable to teaching recreational anglers.

Campfire time!

Cheers, Paul

[Stoatstail50]

“This wasn’t a question of what to teach however, it was a question about how to teach.”

They need the 170 for backhand shots. They need stopless delivery on the forward cast for throwing into a head wind. They need line speed, trajectory and plane adjustments. A blistering haul.

…and

It’s an example of why I think the “competition” block and flip, and for that matter the 170, are highly applicable to teaching recreational anglers.

Isn’t your answer totally about “what” you’re going to teach ?

[Paul Arden]

It is. But isn’t the question then how to teach these? That’s the interesting part.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

If you are going to generate a requirement it should be accompanied by a relevant justification, and I don’t think that your permit example was particularly credible. Even if you do generate a justification that is only relevant to a tiny portion of the worldwide angling population, I would consider looking at the cost/benefit where cost is the amount of effort that I would put into development and preventing skill fade afterwards.

That’s not to say that it shouldn’t be done. If there’s a number of instructors that find that there’s sufficient benefit, they could develop the instructional techniques but I’ll be working on “running up that hill” in case my version of “Wuthering Heights” doesn’t work out.

Regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

So you’re possibly suggesting that we shouldn’t teach saltwater fly anglers taking shots because most anglers fly fish for trout? It’s funny that’s actually one of the main criticisms of the FFI instructor program in that it doesn’t properly represent or teach SW fly fishing skills and there was even a move to create a different program for this in the US, that I’m sure Brian can explain to you. Currently I believe this didn’t move forward yet at the request of the FFI. I agree that casting heavy flies, heavy outfits, taking accurate shots in windy conditions is challenging and requires both excellent technique and coaching. It also challenges us as instructors too to identify what are these techniques and how to teach them.

FWIW all of my long term students coming in at Intermediate level will have no problems performing this particular shot after about 10-12 months of training. One of the two actually returned a year later and made the required shots. The other is just back from a very challenging week in the Seychelles and had the best catch return of the week. Most GTs, biggest GT, a trophy Bluefin and the only guy to ping a Trigger. I’m thrilled for him; he earned it.

Cheers, Paul

[VGB]

So you’re possibly suggesting that we shouldn’t teach saltwater fly anglers taking shots because most anglers fly fish for trout? It’s funny that’s actually one of the main criticisms of the FFI instructor program in that it doesn’t properly represent or teach SW fly fishing skills and there was even a move to create a different program for this in the US, that I’m sure Brian can explain to you.

I didn’t say that at all, I talked about requirements, justification and cost benefit analysis. It is a decision making structure that we use in business and every day life. The problem with your saltwater analogy and the assessment programmes in general is that they start with the answer and try to justify it afterwards. I could make the same argument for introducing small stream techniques like TLT presentations, others do the same with Spey but I don’t think that my personal interests should drive the programme.

The common thing between all fly casting disciplines from an instructional perspective is the movement skills learning process which isn’t really covered at all. All the bells and whistles of specialisations can be added on by individuals afterwards based upon the core skills. I’m spending time looking at injury mechanisms in dynamic systems but I think that is too academic to be introduced into the syllabus but there’s information out there for instructors who care to look.

FWIW all of my long term students coming in at Intermediate level will have no problems performing this particular shot after about 8-12 months of training. One of the two actually returned a year later a made the required shots.

Yet you only gave Mark 3-6 months for the same task?

Regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

So you’re possibly suggesting that we shouldn’t teach saltwater fly anglers taking shots because most anglers fly fish for trout?

I’m not suggesting any such thing. If a caster has a specific need then the instructor should be able to teach what they need.

I for one can’t do a 170 without hospital treatment and have very little experience in the salt and if I can’t do it, or I don’t fish the salt much, I don’t believe I should be teaching it without a big caveat. I can however cast 80’, I’ve even done it off a flats boat in a big wind. Even so, no one on this good earth is going to come to me for competition distance instruction or a tarpon tune up. It would be dishonest to claim I was competent to teach that stuff.

The previous comments I’ve made on these threads refer to how you teach “what” you teach. Historically the 170 and other distance casting techniques have been taught using direct instruction and highly internalised cueing, it’s usually instructor feedback dependent and error reductive. As you have recognised there are other ways to teach this. My point, if there is one anymore, is that the old ways of producing maximum performance are not as effective as the other “new” ones we’ve been discussing, for producing maximum adaptability for a recreational caster.

I wouldn’t teach a 170 to a trout angler but I may teach eliptical casting or presentation casts or the speys to a saltwater angler who wants to cast 80’ upwind in a wave from a boat. Not because they need it to catch their cliff face permit but because the process develops balance and functional stability and variability promotes adaptability.

Historically these “whats” too have been taught using predominantly direct, reductive instruction and this to some extent has been driven by the techniques employed by the experts. By and large recreational casters are not experts and this requires a tweak to instructional technique. If you’re an expert caster, and an instructor, this can be counterintuitive, as evidenced by the many furrowed brows and irritation on here and elsewhere.

This weird dissonance can be remedied by reading a few books. The people who write them have a greater insight into learning and cognitive processes than I could ever muster. I’ve personally found them to be highly enlightening but they do on occasion represent a significant challenge to the current instructional orthodoxy. This affects “how” you teach your 170 back cast shot not whether you teach it or not.

[John Waters]

It is. But isn’t the question then how to teach these? That’s the interesting part.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul Arden]

Yet you only gave Mark 3-6 months for the same task?

good point! But that’s not all I teach them!

I don’t know about cost/benefits but most of my students are SW anglers. They seem to be the ones searching for help.