Structuring multiple lessons

[VGB]

As I understand it, the body core is central to the kinetic chains in sports because it enables load transfers to and from the limbs. Our ability to self organise means that we develop compensatory patterns in the kinetic chain if the chain is disrupted that can lead to high loads on distal parts, overuse of weaker limbs and joints, and overload injuries such as hyper extensions. Highlighting this disruption to the kinetic chain due to arm separation appeared to be the point of Rob Grays video of the baseball player.

However I don’t utilise the bottom half of the chain when casting short casts, even when it’s an available option.

I suspect that you are to engage the core but you haven’t realised it. Action/reaction principles of Newtons 3rd law applies to people as well.

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Hi John

If catch rate was a function of casting proficiency, Euronymphers would blank The adage has been around a long time:


https://www.flyfisherman.com/editorial/ ... r%20stroke.

Here’s a key principle all fly casters need to know. The length of the casting stroke—that is, the distance the hand and arm travel—varies with the length of the line. A short line requires a short stroke. A longer line needs a longer stroke.

https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/5-fly ... ps/7714646

The length of the casting stroke varies with the length of the line. The rule is this: “Short line, short stroke. Longer line, longer stroke”.

.

https://deneki.com/2015/10/casting-shor ... sh-3-tips/

One of the governing principles of fly casting states that the casting stroke must be proportional to the amount of line out the rod tip. In other words, long casts require a long stroke and short casts require a short stroke. So, for really short casts, a really short stroke is needed. A short but quick (more powerful) stroke is the key to turning over long leaders and heavy flies at shorter distances.

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

Casting is most definitely a component of euronymphing and it is a major determinant of catch rate by exponents using that method. You cast/throw/lob the fly into the target channel in the stream to get the best chance of a hookup. It is not overhead casting but casting nevertheless. If your casting ability prevents you placing the fly in the fish holding channel your catch rate drops. Euronymphing also reinforces the chaining principle. The cast/throw/lob or flicks employed all use the shoulder, elbow and wrist. Even just "rolling" the fly from the bottom of the run back to the top of the run involves proximal to distal patterning. If not, nothing happens. Most casts are "lobs" but the proficiency of a lob cast is determined by how well you move the rod, line/leader and fly. Same thing with the bow and arrow cast. Both the euro nymph casts and bow and arrow casts use shoulder, elbow and wrist and joints in a proximal to distal pattern. How well that pattern is executed determines how close the fly lands to the targeted spot.

The adage has been around for a while but what is the objective? If it is to land the fly in the fishes window, then the more effectively it is used, the more times the fly will land in the targeted area. Short casts and long casts use the proximal to distal principle, the challenge (for caster and instructor) in either cast is the use of translation. The adage does not contradict the principle, unless translation is incorrectly used.

John

John

[John Waters]

As I understand it, the body core is central to the kinetic chains in sports because it enables load transfers to and from the limbs. Our ability to self organise means that we develop compensatory patterns in the kinetic chain if the chain is disrupted that can lead to high loads on distal parts, overuse of weaker limbs and joints, and overload injuries such as hyper extensions.

Agree Vince.

John

[VGB]

Even if it follows the proximal to distal principle, if Euronymphing is casting then the pattern is so fuzzy as to have limited coaching utility. Given our agreement of Post 103, we could be following the principle but be teaching poor technique.

The adage has been around for a while but what is the objective?

Good question I don’t know, I don’t follow it. Like Mark mentioned in his excellent post #92, I teach movement through the kinetic chain from the feet up from the beginning and I fish that way. Is it biomechanically efficient to limit the stroke to hand movement only?

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

Even if it follows the proximal to distal principle, if Euronymphing is casting then the pattern is so fuzzy as to have limited coaching utility. Given our agreement of Post 103, we could be following the principle but be teaching poor technique.

The adage has been around for a while but what is the objective?

Good question I don’t know, I don’t follow it. Like Mark mentioned in his excellent post #92, I teach movement through the kinetic chain from the feet up from the beginning and I fish that way. Is it biomechanically efficient to limit the stroke to hand movement only?

Regards

Vince

Hi Vince,

Following the proximal to distal principle for euronymphing would devolp good euronymphing technique and would do so whilst limiting injury to the elbow and, or wrist. One example of following the principle but teaching poor technique would be moving hips and shoulders before elbow and wrist but not separating them.

John

[VGB]

As a principle, it’s been around a while

“All motions with the strongest joynts performe. Lett the weaker second and perfect the same. The stronger joynt its motion first must end. Before the nixt to move in the least intend.” (Kinkaid, 1687 cited in Herring & Chapman, 1992).

I see a lot of Euronymphing done with a straightish arm to perform the lob, there was a good demo in Munich last year using a lot of under the tip casting. Currently, I’m working my way through a review of the principle and this forms part of the introduction that mirrors my thoughts on the topic:

Hitherto, a multitude of research from various domains has been conducted on motions with P-D-sequencing without a complete mechanism or motor control theory emerging from it.

The body of evidence on the P-D-sequence is large, but confusing due to unclear terminology and a large variety of variables on multiple levels of analysis. We used only kinematic terms in the simple sketch above and ignored the role of muscles and the central nervous system, which is obviously incomplete. This notion cannot serve as a definition of the phenomenon, nor is there any agreed-upon version of a definition, making it hard to compare empirical results………….

Translating the complex mechanism of the P-D-sequence and its large, confusing body of evidence to coaches, therapists and practitioners is a difficult and delicate task.

What are your thoughts on the biomechanically efficiency of limiting the stroke to hand movement only?

Regards

Vince

[John Waters]

As a principle, it’s been around a while

“All motions with the strongest joynts performe. Lett the weaker second and perfect the same. The stronger joynt its motion first must end. Before the nixt to move in the least intend.” (Kinkaid, 1687 cited in Herring & Chapman, 1992).

I see a lot of Euronymphing done with a straightish arm to perform the lob, there was a good demo in Munich last year using a lot of under the tip casting. Currently, I’m working my way through a review of the principle and this forms part of the introduction that mirrors my thoughts on the topic:

Hitherto, a multitude of research from various domains has been conducted on motions with P-D-sequencing without a complete mechanism or motor control theory emerging from it.

The body of evidence on the P-D-sequence is large, but confusing due to unclear terminology and a large variety of variables on multiple levels of analysis. We used only kinematic terms in the simple sketch above and ignored the role of muscles and the central nervous system, which is obviously incomplete. This notion cannot serve as a definition of the phenomenon, nor is there any agreed-upon version of a definition, making it hard to compare empirical results………….

Translating the complex mechanism of the P-D-sequence and its large, confusing body of evidence to coaches, therapists and practitioners is a difficult and delicate task.

What are your thoughts on the biomechanically efficiency of limiting the stroke to hand movement only?

Regards

Vince

Yes Vince, the principle is far from new. A wise man once told me the only thing that changes is the terminology. The older I get the wiser he was. Evidence of the principle's applicability to performance, instruction and injury mitigation is unarguable and each of those three outcomes apply equally to fly casting as they do to other sports. I am not sure what you mean by "any agreed-upon version of a definition". Does that refer to the biomechanical applicability of proximal to distal in general sport, just fly casting or is it a reference to something else. As to translating the mechanism to an audience it depends on the quality of the communication. It is simpler than some perceive.

"What are your thoughts on the biomechanically efficiency of limiting the stroke to hand movement only?"

Do you mean the wrist rather than hand? I think you may mean wrist. We can't move the hand without wrist extension and flexion or either ulnar or radial deviation. If wrist only the lob action is is very limited, as is the case in overhead and roll casting.

John

John

[John Waters]

Apologies Vince, I too late to edit but meant to add,

A straight arm euronymphing lob, without wrist deviation, uses the shoulder in either adduction or abduction.

John

[VGB]

Hi John

Rained off from fishing again here

I am not sure what you mean by "any agreed-upon version of a definition". Does that refer to the biomechanical applicability of proximal to distal in general sport, just fly casting or is it a reference to something else.

It came from a meta review of the topic, the measured parameters varied from study to study such that data could not be compared or compiled. This occurred if the studies objectives differed such as absolute performance vs injury prevention and rehabilitation.

As to translating the mechanism to an audience it depends on the quality of the communication. It is simpler than some perceive.

Other than absolute rod hand speed, what mechanisms do you think should be considered?

Do you mean the wrist rather than hand?

No, I was considering a foundation type stroke.

Regards

Vince

[VGB]

A straight arm euronymphing lob, without wrist deviation, uses the shoulder in either adduction or abduction.

Sorry John, I missed this, I was planning some fishing . Is this good or bad?

Regards

Vince