Structuring multiple lessons

[VGB]

Great article Paul. I think that what we are teaching is increasing the range of controlled movement and stimulating the grey matter with differential learning. The subject material is almost immaterial, I took a beginner through roll cast to snake roll this weekend in consecutive steps to unfreeze the casting arm.

https://www.sexyloops.co.uk/theboard/

Busy week but I want to have a second read.

regards

Vince

[Paul Arden]

Thanks Vince, I was half way starting a new topic this last weekend and then moved it to a FP. The Snake Roll is a great example. It’s highly useful in river of course, not just for downstream lure bashing but also for upstream dry fly and going in for shots in NZ. But it’s also useful in Stillwaters and Saltwater. The first for changing angles lochstyle and the second can be integrated into a shot. But the real benefit in my opinion is the control required for this cast. It’s a deliberate line repositioning move involving different rod arm movements.

Everything that expands the range of movement the better. I’ve seen it so many times now, and I’ve mentioned it a few times before, that single handed Spey casting elevates someone’s overall casting ability in a way that simply drilling overhead and roll casts doesn’t achieve. I’ve seen casters put 10-15’ on their overhead distance purely as a result of learning Spey casts.

Presentation casts can achieve a similar improvement. It’s all integrated and the wider the spectrum of casts we teach, the better everything becomes. It’s interesting how often the solutions can be found in different casts. I actually think that’s the best way to teach. Fix the problem in another (new) cast and then transfer it across. That way we keep their interest, it’s easier to make changes, changes are retained and we have a new cast in their armoury as well.

Too easily we can get stuck in a rut. Trying to make small changes to an existing stroke that don’t stick. Developing an entirely new but related (almost all casts are related) stroke is the better way I think. But it’s not the obvious thing to do!

Back in town. Long distance run tonight. It’s been a while!

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Too easily we can get stuck in a rut. Trying to make small changes to an existing stroke that don’t stick. Developing an entirely new but related (almost all casts are related) stroke is the better way I think. But it’s not the obvious thing to do!

Cheers, Paul

Paul,

Very much enjoyed this FP.

Over the last few weeks I stumbled into an interesting journey. First I got a thorough view of Simon G teaching Spey. Then, coincidentally, in the following order, I got to sit in a long course by a FL Keys MCI on casting into the wind. Then, this past weekend, I attended a conclave where a pretty well known author of a casting book gave his interpretation on how to cast single hand rods. Immediately afterwards, I walked outside and saw another Spey demo on using Spey equipment to surf cast from FL beaches.

All of the above had similarities but definite differences, and none of the info jibed very well with commonly held theories on casting here on SL... which I think is more advanced BTW.

But, apparently, all the disparate ideas seem to help folks become better casters.

Could it be so simple as having the students actually hold a flyrod and actually practice and try to improve?

Always scratching my head!

Gary

[VGB]

It’s interesting how often the solutions can be found in different casts. I actually think that’s the best way to teach. Fix the problem in another (new) cast and then transfer it across........Too easily we can get stuck in a rut.

It's an interesting one because my student began to overthink the cast and was back to freezing up with U shaped and windscreen wiper tip paths. I used straights and ovals to unlock him and then got him to do consecutive ovals in different vertical planes by twisting the torso. We sort of fell into the snake roll from there because I gave him an application of the move. He got quite excited and compared these exercises to swinging a sparkler around with the kids on bonfire night, it was a pretty good analogy to work with.

Long distance run tonight. It’s been a while!

Same here, just over 20 years

regards

Vince

[VGB]

All of the above had similarities but definite differences, and none of the info jibed very well with commonly held theories on casting here on SL... which I think is more advanced BTW.

But, apparently, all the disparate ideas seem to help folks become better casters.

Could it be so simple as having the students actually hold a flyrod and actually practice and try to improve?

Hi Gary

I think that the instructosphere is locked on to casting mechanics whereas the discussion here are more about what goes on between the ears and central nervous system. It's very easy to get sucked into a right/wrong conflict between the philosophies when it is clear that caster will learn to cast eventually under almost any form of structured instruction. For me, the main difference is that I want the student to have a self sufficient adaptable stroke to cover the wide range of circumstances that they may encounter instead of a fixed didactic structure based on a specific set of equipment in a particular environment. I would suggest that you observed individual solutions to several discrete objectives.

Could it be so simple as having the students actually hold a flyrod and actually practice and try to improve?

Learning about the advantages of deliberate practice involving blocked, variable and random practice would be a great underpinning for instructors that set practice routines.

regards

Vince

[Stoatstail50]

Could it be so simple as having the students actually hold a flyrod and actually practice and try to improve?

It could be a great start…but it’s more complicated than that.

We’ve been through the effects of contextual interference before on SL and Vince has also touched on differential learning and deliberate practice both of which have also been discussed in the last few years. But you’re quite right….because it’s all just puff and filler unless the caster has a rod in hand and has a go.

With respect to lesson content, the understanding of basic mechanics on SL is streets ahead of that of most of the rest of the instructor community. With respect to learning theory a 16 year old doing a GCSE in PE probably knows more than the vast majority of instructors out there.

[Paul Arden]

There is a huge risk in teaching where when trying to make minor (or subtle) changes to an ingrained stroke, it results in the caster overanalysing his or her movements, they then become robotic, everything looks forced and what we thought was a minor change becomes a road block of immense proportions. It is a spiral into frustration. We have all been there I’m quite sure. Numerous times!

I try to avoid this, of course, but I still manage to run the ship aground more often than I’d like. And I think there are two reasons for this. The obvious one is that the actual changes we want to make to movement, we inform the student, which is an automatic shift for them to internal focus. Sometimes this almost works. But if it doesn’t and we try to make another change, and that doesn’t work either, then we are heading down the plug hole of oblivion.

The less obvious one is that the student puts himself or herself there. Now we may feel slightly better about this, but it is actually still our fault for not preventing it

We can square it away and say “to go forwards you need to go backwards first”, which is usually true of course. And sometimes intentionally throwing a spanner into the works is even a good thing.

What I like about coming in with a totally new cast (or “apparently new”) is that we are starting with a clean slate. We don’t have all the so-called “muscle memory” to deal with. Because for the caster it is new stuff. They don’t know we are trying to change something in their existing stroke unless we tell them (Interestingly we can actually tell them and that doesn’t seem to be a problem).

And I think that’s partly why teaching Spey casts works. You can make someone a really good Spey caster… it’s totally different… and yet it’s also the same.

It’s not a miracle cure. I teach people who can already Spey cast. But if they can’t then they are going to learn

Cheers, Paul

[John Waters]

What I like about coming in with a totally new cast (or “apparently new”) is that we are starting with a clean slate. We don’t have all the so-called “muscle memory” to deal with. Because for the caster it is new stuff. They don’t know we are trying to change something in their existing stroke unless we tell them (Interestingly we can actually tell them and that doesn’t seem to be a problem).



Cheers, Paul

Agree Paul, having the student throw a ball at targets on the ground at various distances and have them vary the ball speed at each target is a great way to trigger lightbulb moments in casting instruction. Similarly, using a plug rod to feel the swing motion of both the rod and the plug in the cast. Swapping between the plug and fly gear improves fly lesson outcomes quickly and effectively.

John

[Stoatstail50]

There is a huge risk in teaching where when trying to make minor (or subtle) changes to an ingrained stroke, it results in the caster overanalysing his or her movements, they then become robotic, everything looks forced and what we thought was a minor change becomes a road block of immense proportions. It is a spiral into frustration. We have all been there I’m quite sure. Numerous times!

I try to avoid this, of course, but I still manage to run the ship aground more often than I’d like. And I think there are two reasons for this. The obvious one is that the actual changes we want to make to movement, we inform the student, which is an automatic shift for them to internal focus. Sometimes this almost works. But if it doesn’t and we try to make another change, and that doesn’t work either, then we are heading down the plug hole of oblivion.

The less obvious one is that the student puts himself or herself there. Now we may feel slightly better about this, but it is actually still our fault for not preventing it

It’s really hard to avoid this if the usual sources of advice imply that instructor feedback to the student should be mainly body centric. I can still feel myself squirming up in an effort not to do it in lessons. You know that, if you do say something about body motion, this is very likely to generate paralysis by analysis but, because we’ve all been trained in a system that encourages it…I still want to do it on a “seen it,say it” principle. Obviously, instructors are analysing body movement all the time and this, at the end of the day is what we’re teaching. With respect to how we teach it, in one to one instruction, indirect methods are likely to be significantly more effective than direct ones.

I don’t agree however that it’s always the case that it’s an instructors fault if a caster goes down that track. That’s a mean stick to beat yourself with. Collectively maybe there’s some responsibility, but it’s very common to have casters arrive with all sorts of weird baggage, obsessed with wrists and elbows because that’s the nature of the stuff they’ve read or seen online. You’d have to be instructionally perfect to be able to consistently head that off.

[Paul Arden]

Mark’s “walking while casting” can get a similar unfreezing result.

What I have been playing with is the order that we introduce things. Obviously it makes sense to introduce the Jump Roll before the Single Spey. It makes sense to do backhand shots before the 170. But it doesn’t seem to matter if we introduce Speys before Presentations, or Wind Casts before Shots. Bow and Arrow Cast and B&A Rolls can be included anywhere, although the most logical place to insert them is in Presentations.

Where skills are layered it obviously matters but when skills are parallel I haven’t found any advantage in switching the orders around…. Yet.

What I certainly would never do would be something like: Accuracy 2 lessons, Distance 2 lessons, Speys 2 lessons, Presentations 2 lessons, Wind 1 lesson, Shots 1 lesson. That would be a disaster. It’s more like: Accuracy and Distance 10 lessons, Speys 4 lessons, Presentations 9 lessons, Wind 10 lessons, Shots 10 lessons… in a 10 lesson Intermediate block.

Cheers, Paul