OK... Rod configuration effect on the line?

[John Waters]

There is an important prerequisite to loop shape that should be trained for. For your short line casts (no translation for short line casts) ensure you feel the line tension on the tip as you rotate the rod through the arc. It gives yourself the best chance of achieving the desired loop shape. It precedes the loop shape you then see.

John

[Vinny]

Stoatstail50
Now that I’ve had my coffee I can elaborate a bit. I’m pretty sure the lack of feedback I get from the rod is what causes me to look especially at my BC. The signal to look is when I don’t feel anything in my hand. It’s then that I’ll make an adjustment to clean up the loop on my next cast, if I have to. Sometimes the physical cues can be misleading like I think my back cast felt bad when it isn’t.

Some days like yesterday I was throwing lasers with my 11 at Poons where as the day before I looked like I never had a rod in my hand, on most casts. Towards the end of the day yesterday I stopped at a flat to catch some Trout with my 6 wt. It may sound odd but I like throwing heavyweights because of the physical feedback where as the lightweights force me to rely on my visual cues if that makes any sense.
Anyway I appreciate the commitment you all put into this. Between Paul and the rest of you I’m sure to be a better caster, someday

[Stoatstail50]

Hi Vinny

It’s not lack of feedback…you’re getting a kind of “WTF was that?” feedback which is causing you to look. Something unexpected or not normal. The point is that you look to check because the instant feely sensory feedback is vague, it isn’t going to give you all the information you need to accurately adjust your inputs the next time round.

We are highly dependent on what we see when we cast but that doesn’t mean that we only assess our environment or manage our behaviour solely by sight. Our reactions are governed by more than one sensory source at a time, vision may be dominant but it’s not the only one.

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

Hi Paul,

Yes of course. It’s not very much fun using a poker, but absolutely. I think they all come down to tip path, line configuration at the beginning of the stroke, and perhaps a little bit of loop morphing.

OK... but lets ignore morphing for a second - I'm only thinking about short / fishing length casts that require some finesse.

Rod stiffness certainly plays a part. It’s easier to make wider *controlled* loops with a softer rod. And easier to make tighter loops with a stiffer rod. But both are quite possible for each rod.

I agree loop shaping is possible - I was wondering how you accomplish it.

Being able to bend a rod into 3 dimensions is useful for casting loop planes different from the rod “surface”/plane, but you can still do that with rigid rod.

Now we are getting close to what I was implying about how the rod is shaped in 3 dimensions. Do you think it (the rod shape) predicts the shape of the line?

Loops are about the rod tip path, and its relationship to how the full length of line outside the rod tip is positioned at the beginning of the stroke.

Only at the beginning of the stroke? There is nothing that can be done during the stroke?

Thanks!

Gary

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

I’m pretty sure the lack of feedback I get from the rod is what causes me to look especially at my BC. The signal to look is when I don’t feel anything in my hand.

Vinny,

Out of curiosity... the feedback you are "looking" for - are you looking for it primarily in your rod hand, or in your line hand?

I've had a lot of folks tell me they feel the rod tip bend? We got no nerve endings in the rod tip! So... they are actually looking for that feedback in their rod hand, I think.

The funny thing is there is a lot of stuff that gets in the way... like the weight of the rod and the reel.

Maybe try concentrating more on what you feel in your line hand? You are in direct contact with the line there. I like to hold the line over the tip of my index finger, and that is one of the reasons. Also, if you turn your guides out a bit, there is less friction due to the rod blank.

If you get used to concentrating on the feedback there, you don't have to avert your eyes from more important things... like the fish. Tension (or lack of) in the line will tell you everything you need to know about what is going on with the line.

As they say here... Cheers!

Gary

BTW... seeing any clues of the poon migration up there???

[Vinny]

Gentlemen
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your input. Both nailed it, like a light bulb went off!!
To answer your question Gary. The feedback I expect is in my rod hand. I expect to feel the rod load from the weight of the line pulling against it at the same time feeling it in my line hand. Usually if I don’t feel anything I know my cast turned to garbage which causes me to look.
I’m taking a fly rod with me on the ferry today so I can tool around between runs.
A work in progress .

[Vinny]

Sorry Gary, missed the last question.
Yes!!

[Paul Arden]

Do you think it (the rod shape) predicts the shape of the line?

No. Rod bend affects tip path but there are other factors that can affect it too. Just knowing how the rod shapes can’t allow you to know the loop shape.

Paul Arden wrote: ↑
Loops are about the rod tip path, and its relationship to how the full length of line outside the rod tip is positioned at the beginning of the stroke.

Only at the beginning of the stroke? There is nothing that can be done during the stroke?

There is lots that can be done during the stroke. It’s just that many people will tell you it’s only what happens during the stroke, which is not the case. Line configuration at the beginning of the stroke is important. Particularly when this line is too long to be completely redirected by the tip path.

Cheers, Paul

[Mangrove Cuckoo]

OK...

I see that I am failing to ask the question clearly.

I am not saying that tip path and line layout are not important. In fact, I believe that every current stroke is heavily dependent on the quality of the previous one.

I'll try to clarify my question and try again later.

[George C]

There is lots that can be done during the stroke. It’s just that many people will tell you it’s only what happens during the stroke, which is not the case.

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul

Some clarification would help me here.

From SL Definitions Casting Stroke: When the rod applies force to the line in order to form a loop.
Where do you consider the casting stroke to end. RSP1, RSP2, Max counterflex, or something else?

I ask because I think there is lots that can be done AFTER the stroke (or at least the stop/deceleration that starts the overtaking action of the fly leg and loop formation) which affects the loop shape. I'm pretty sure I often ruin loops by what I do with the rod tip position and/or rod leg tension early after they are formed.

Thanks
George